DISMANTLE WHARF

Is this video supposed to have sound?

Evan.V.N.S.J. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:10 pm Is this video supposed to have sound?

Thanks for asking! No.

Watching it without sound, I was mesmerized by the ASL interpreter's performance. While I'm sure it was not their intention, it seemed to me that the performance could only be read as a commentary on the careless stupidity of the speakers. So I captured the video as it was, and posted it with the title "Public Comment." It feels to me like a kind of public commentary.

My imagined audience for this video is someone like me (and you) with no fluency in ASL. But I would be interested to know how someone who speaks the language interpets the performance.

There are other formal aspects of this staging that interest me but perhaps that's not important.

This is great.

I don't understand sign language either but I think the facial expressions are part of the communication and can change the meaning of the signs. I have been watching the provincial COVID-19 updates which also have sign language interpretation and the interpreter is similarly animated. I like the idea that there could be some secret resistance happening but I'm not sure that's the case here?

i've been taking some ASL lessons via skype on and off the past six months, not nearly good enough to gloss this without english captions or sound but fwiw:

yep facial expression are integral parts of ASL, both semantically (ex: eyebrows up or down distinguishes wh-questions and yes/no-questions and mixing the two is basically ungrammatical) and tonally (emphasis and semi-lexical values indicating scale, size, extent that would be done with pitch or maybe syllabic accent in english). in general this makes fluent ASL speakers seem way more expressive and animated than english speakers, to an almost comically exaggerated degree to WASPier flavors of english speakers e.g. me

Thanks for that perspective, [mention]jamessumneriii[/mention] .

As I said above, my imagined audience for this is someone like me with no fluency in ASL. I also acknowledged above that it likely wasn't their intention to undermine the public statement. It sounds like that is indeed likely, given your experience, but of course we can never know from simply watching what the translator was actually thinking.

I remain committed to the sentiment that these men are fucking cowards whose words are worthless. I thought others like me might see the same thing. Of course the video is neither groundbreaking nor really important for others to see, but I think it does express that sentiment, so I'm pretty happy with it.

[mention]GARY-19[/mention] oh totally, and to be clear i mean that as a broad statement re perceived exaggeration but am refraining from making the call whether the interpreter is mocking the speaker or not

and in the "maybe mocking" column i can say that broadly, asl speakers tend to not mince words? like it's not a super euphemistic language lmao

not asl but for some hilarious precedent for subtle resistance from translators and interpreters, arabic graffiti artists hired for the show homeland did some truly magnificent work a while back

jamessumneriii wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:20 pm not asl but for some hilarious precedent for subtle resistance from translators and interpreters, arabic graffiti artists hired for the show homeland did some truly magnificent work a while back

Thanks for sharing!

I know this is not a big deal, but I'm not really comfortable with the idea of aestheticizing and decontextualizing a form of communication you don't understand in order to project your own meaning onto it. To me this is the equivalent of (for example) when people who don't understand Chinese say that people speaking Chinese always sound angry, or even hearing people speak a language you don't understand in public and assuming they are talking about you. Those are really pointed examples obviously but I hope they illustrate what I'm getting at. It's a form of communication that isn't for you/us and making it about how we perceive it rather than what it actually is for the audience it is meant for just feels weird to me.

Sorry for having a thorn in my side about this I hope I can be forgiven for feeling a bit punchier than usual these days.

I would prefer not to engage in meaningless debate about this very inconsequential piece of "video art" that I've posted, which you've obviously misunderstood.

I understand perfectly what you are attempting to do, and I think the conversation I'm attempting to have with you is less meaningless than that. But if you're not interested, neither am I.

To lighten the mood, let us never forget the ultimate example of aestheticizing a language you don't speak:

https://youtu.be/-VsmF9m_Nt8

god this song slaps so hard

omg! I had forgotten about this song, but it really takes me back to circa 2010 when it was a staple on my party playlists.

I am producing a film that is from the Hard of Hearing POV and thinks a lot about disability and representation of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing communities and the VALUE in these experiences (as opposed to a deficit of sound), and will say that what Evan said is something I have heard. For example when people say something on stage and then admit they just said that thing to see how the ASL interpreter would sign it: not cool.

While sure it's no fun to bring seriousness to a fun thread, this is part of what is happening with the protests right now. That a topic/thought you think is OK within your own lived context actually creates inequality for those the topic/thought is about, and we need to be gracious about being educated on these things that are outside our lived experiences.

Not doing the most articulate job cause I actually shouldn't be on this board and just jumped in to say how I added walnuts to my hummus on accident on another thread but as someone working to be a disability ally needed to share.

[mention]jamessumneriii[/mention] How did you find your sign language class? I'm interested in learning to sign, and I'd love to try a virtual Spanish conversation group.

Also, has anyone seen Crip Camp? Watched it the other night and learned so much about the Disability Rights movement, and the radical tactics activists with disabilities used to get the ADA passed. There's a very moving section detailing how Black Panthers provided nightly dinner for disabled activists occupying a federal building in SF for 20+ days.

I really liked crip camp

[mention]willowowow[/mention] i do my lessons through italki.com, which has been a good fit for how i pick up languages conversationally

i haven't seen crip camp but that sounds great! drunk history had a really good segment on the same ADA activists (with all disabled actors iirc) and yeah they were hardcore and brooked zero bullshit from what i can tell

Thanks [mention]jamessumneriii[/mention] !!

I know everyone is trying to move on but I just have to add one more thought:
There is no meaningless debate when the topic is centered around people who aren't treated as equals.

Also I echo everyone's rec to watch Crip Camp!
I got to be on a call with Judy Heumann once and I was so star struck and hanging on her every idea. Such a radical thinker.

I thought this LA Times article, about the lack of Black ASL interpreters, and the ways that signing is grappling with, advancing, and expressing the BLM movement, was super interesting and helpful. https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... omplicated

Since the emerging consensus here is that capturing the interpeter's perspective is a more urgent endeavor than any critical message the video may be sending, this profile, which a friend in MPLS sent me, might be of interest:
https://m.startribune.com/can-t-stop-wa ... 571111392/

[mention]GARY-19[/mention] very cool article! also a nice outline of where deaf culture (which usually includes hearing family members fluent in sign) intersects with physical deafness/HoH

one of the bigger youtube asl teachers is dr bill vicars, and in one video (can't remember which or i would link) he talked about the odd innovations that his hearing children used in asl, which seemed marginal or unacceptable to him. but it wasn't a hearing/deaf divide, it was generational, i.e. his kids picked it up from signers their age

at the risk of veering academic and/or detached, the history of the deaf culture in martha's vineyard in the 18th-early 20th centuries is fascinating: widespread deafness in the population resulted an almost complete integration of deaf persons in normal community life (basically unheard of in mainstream culture at that time) and in an almost bilingual culture on most of the island.

and, ok god i am forcing myself to not ramble about this one, but nicaraguan sign language is maybe the only example of a language emerging ex nihilo, a legit amazing story

[mention]rcnederveld[/mention] can you think of deaf/signing culture in movies where deafness/signing is normalized, in the sense that it isn't stigmatized or over-explained or over-dramatized, just "there are characters who sign instead of/in addition to speaking, read the dang subtitles"

the two that come to mind for me are Hush and Sympathy for Mr Vengeance, both of which i enjoyed even though both typify the abysmal representation of deaf/hoh actors

GARY-19 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:12 am https://m.startribune.com/can-t-stop-wa ... 571111392/

This is behind a paywall! But I'd love to read!

[mention]jamessumneriii[/mention] I'm so into your links. MORE! We could have a whole other tangent where I tell you about my film and how one of the main goals is to get people to rethink captioning and subtitles to be a third narrative space, as well as rethought of in terms of what is actually needed and useful for the d/Deaf/HoH.

As far as films! I'm gonna say I'm hearing/able bodied and feel like I see a lot of conflict about different conversations within d/Deaf/HoH experiences so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.
note: D implies culturally Deaf

BUT I think a good place to start is representation - are d/Deaf/HoH parts given to d/Deaf/HoH actors. If not, then can it be considered a normalization? Both of your examples wouldn't fall into this category. (Also, who is telling the story and what's their relationship to the culture?)

It's still very rare. The Sound of Metal that is coming out soon is about a hearing metal drummer who goes deaf... It's a hearing actor but it makes sense for the role. I liked it for a lot of reasons, though it's a bit... mainstream? masculine? stereotypical? ... for my tastes outside of watching for work. The Deaf community was really involved in the making of it, too, which you can tell.

There's a lot of films by d/Deaf people that we as hearing people just don't know about. Also you can easily go down a rabbit hole (especially on ig) of Deaf people signing to songs / their own music videos to things / etc.

I asked my director her opinion on movies since she's in the community and I'm not (and we always talk about this stuff and I thought she would say NO MOVIE, which she sorta did) and this is what she said:
Baby Driver (actor CJ is a Deaf)
Beyond Silence, 1998 French movie about musician with Deaf parents is the one she liked the most but hasn't seen in a while so puts a disclaimer on that.

Also Lauren Ridloff, Deaf actress, is about to be the first Marvel Deaf superhero...

i've been rewatching West Wing and Marlee Matlin, who is deaf, plays pollster character Joey Lucas

[mention]rcnederveld[/mention] Baby Driver! I knew I'd seen another decent signed interaction in a movie recently, couldn't think of it

oh that's so cool re Ridloff, didn't know about that. I don't think Makkari is deaf in the comics but I also haven't kept up with comics in a while, so don't quote me on that part

the loosely-connected DC tv universe actually had cool rep recently, they added the deaf hero / son-of-a-villain Jericho in Titans played by a deaf actor

The thriller movie A Quiet Place has a deaf character and actress, and signing. Also, it's pretty scary!

Everyone please let us know if you watch Crip Camp! Netflix! It's a great film to add to your repertoire of films for self education on equality for all, which I feel like most of us probably have going?

Would love to know any other films people have already watched in this manner, especially the lesser known ones. I've been really enjoying random picks from the "Pioneers of African American Cinema" collection (assuming these are behind the paywall) and learning about their context on the internet while watching.
(I'd be down to zoom watch some of the films behind a paywall with a group of you if anyone is interested.)

We watched Crip Camp last night!

So major. I was especially moved by the solidarity between the disability community, the unions, the gay rights movement, and the larger civil rights movement. The Black Panthers cooking for them while they occupied the San Francisco Office of the U.S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare! Jesus. That’s how you get it done. Also: organizing works & getting people together within a community and across likeminded communities works. It really reminded me of the coalition of activists who are currently pushing to revise the city budget in LA to defund the police & fund social services.

Solidarity forever!!!

Also I’m very down for a Zoom buddies film fest! Do you use Plex by chance? There’s a pretty good simultaneous replay function for people connected to the same Plex server.

I haven't used PLex but I'm down for it. So glad you watched it. And yeah, it's SO relevant right now and the idea that no one is free until we are all free - so many groups of people who don't have even close to the rights I have. I love seeing the black disability / black trans / and other sub-communities having their voices also elevated out right now.

ALSO I know this is prob better for movie thread but I watched the short doc "The Children Were Watching" on Criterion last night about the first school integration in NOLA in 1960 and wow. So simple of a film and also so complex. (The whole paternal side of my family was living there then so especially struck home)

[mention]yourfriendclaire[/mention] & [mention]rcnederveld[/mention] i have plex as well and am down to help host/sync up, all the more so since i'm basically incapable of relaxing and watching anything longer than 10 minutes unless a fixed time to watch with a friend or friends makes me

case in point, here's a fun and unexpected overlap in my interests in asl and animation and horror movies!

the signer's asl looks very good and natural to my not-fluent eye, what i've scanned of comments seem to confirm this. also: big man's a lefty! who knew

thanks to quar I am also now a pro at setting up movie streams from Kast, happy to be a host if it ever makes sense, just needs to be a movie that I can get a torrent of in advance.

watched and enjoyed Crip Camp this week! when the Black Panthers arrived with food to the 504 Sit-In I burst into tears. one more self education rec is Let the Fire Burn. I particularly appreciated that it's entirely comprised of archival footage.

I've been watching Ryan Murphy's "The Politician" - the principal is played by a deaf actor, and it's several episodes into the show before that fact gets just a passing mention. There's another character with Cerebal Palsey, and in that instance too his disability is not part of his storyline in any significant way. It's refreshing. There is so much that is silly and arch about Ryan Murphy but he is very intentional about representation.